[livesupport-dev] exact details of reference platform (Knoppix) - Airtime Development Discussions on Sourcefabric Forum

import

a question mainly to Michael:

what would be the exact reference setup for the CD based install? we'd
need this information to create a reference system, so as to compile and
test LiveSupport on it. could you post exact details, version, download
site, etc. of the reference setup?

Also, the issue of OSS vs. ALSA came up earlier: does this Knoppix
support ALSA? or only OSS?

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail

import

> a question mainly to Michael:
>
> what would be the exact reference setup for the CD based install? we'd
> need this information to create a reference system, so as to compile and
> test LiveSupport on it. could you post exact details, version, download
> site, etc. of the reference setup?
>

the latest knoppix version is:
KNOPPIX_V3.7-2004-12-08 (-EN)

I normally get them from vienna:
http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/opsys/linux/knoppix/
but any other mirror should be fine too.
(http://www.knoppix.net/get.php)

the knoppix-installer ("sudo knoppix-installer") install type "debian"
should be want we want.
most probably some (developer) packages have to be added or updated
afterwards to build livesupport. it would be good to keep track of
those.

> Also, the issue of OSS vs. ALSA came up earlier: does this Knoppix
> support ALSA? or only OSS?

well. it "supports" alsa in this version, but:
it seems to me that the auto-detection for alsa is broken and the
alsa-modules were not updated for the new (2.4) kernel in this version.

this may be a reason to use the older version (which I know is working
with alsa) instead, if a working alsa should be available:
KNOPPIX_V3.6-2004-08-16-EN

(theoretical it should then be possbible to update the packages on the
cd release to current debian sarge. but this needs to be done carefully
not to break any knoppix-specifics..)

m,-

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail

import

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Hi Michael,

Please forgive what may be a stupid question, but isn't hardware support
better with a newer kernel version? One of the key criteria for the
Installer CD in the first place was that it provide the widest possible
support for hardware. Or does Knoppix handle hardware differently? I'm the
first to admit a profound lack of knowledge of its workings.

I also recognize that time is tight, and that we will settle for whatever
we can finish fastest, but I wanted to raise this question with you.

doug

p.s. I don't want to derail any plans, but I've had pretty good results
with the Beatrix 2005.1 Live CD (based on Ubuntu, which is itself
Debian-based).

=============================================
Media Development Loan Fund
=============================================
Douglas Arellanes
Head of Research and Development
Center for Advanced Media--Prague (CAMP)
Na vinicnich horach 24a/1834, 160 00 Prague 6
Czech Republic
Tel: + 420 2 3333 5356, Fax: +420 2 2431 5419
Mobile: +420 724 073 364
http://www.mdlf-camp.net
http://www.campware.org
=============================================
http://www.mdlf.org
=============================================

michael aschauer
02/21/2005 04:10 PM
Please respond to livesupport-dev

To: livesupport-dev@campware.org
cc:
Subject: Re: [livesupport-dev] exact details of reference platform (Knoppix)

> a question mainly to Michael:
>
> what would be the exact reference setup for the CD based install? we'd
> need this information to create a reference system, so as to compile and
> test LiveSupport on it. could you post exact details, version, download
> site, etc. of the reference setup?
>

the latest knoppix version is:
KNOPPIX_V3.7-2004-12-08 (-EN)

I normally get them from vienna:
http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/opsys/linux/knoppix/
but any other mirror should be fine too.
(http://www.knoppix.net/get.php)

the knoppix-installer ("sudo knoppix-installer") install type "debian"
should be want we want.
most probably some (developer) packages have to be added or updated
afterwards to build livesupport. it would be good to keep track of
those.

> Also, the issue of OSS vs. ALSA came up earlier: does this Knoppix
> support ALSA? or only OSS?

well. it "supports" alsa in this version, but:
it seems to me that the auto-detection for alsa is broken and the
alsa-modules were not updated for the new (2.4) kernel in this version.

this may be a reason to use the older version (which I know is working
with alsa) instead, if a working alsa should be available:
KNOPPIX_V3.6-2004-08-16-EN

(theoretical it should then be possbible to update the packages on the
cd release to current debian sarge. but this needs to be done carefully
not to break any knoppix-specifics..)

m,-

--=_alternative 00542F06C1256FAF_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Michael,

Please forgive what may be a stupid question, but isn't hardware support better with a newer kernel version? One of the key criteria for the Installer CD in the first place was that it provide the widest possible support for hardware. Or does Knoppix handle hardware differently? I'm the first to admit a profound lack of knowledge of its workings.

I also recognize that time is tight, and that we will settle for whatever we can finish fastest, but I wanted to raise this question with you.

doug

p.s. I don't want to derail any plans, but I've had pretty good results with the Beatrix 2005.1 Live CD (based on Ubuntu, which is itself Debian-based).

=============================================

Media Development Loan Fund

=============================================

Douglas Arellanes

Head of Research and Development

Center for Advanced Media--Prague (CAMP)

Na vinicnich horach 24a/1834, 160 00 Prague 6

Czech Republic

Tel: + 420 2 3333 5356, Fax: +420 2 2431 5419

Mobile: +420 724 073 364

http://www.mdlf-camp.net

http://www.campware.org

=============================================

http://www.mdlf.org

=============================================

michael aschauer <mash@re-p.org>

02/21/2005 04:10 PM

Please respond to livesupport-dev

To: livesupport-dev@campware.org

cc:

Subject: Re: [livesupport-dev] exact details of reference platform (Knoppix)

> a question mainly to Michael:

>

> what would be the exact reference setup for the CD based install? we'd

> need this information to create a reference system, so as to compile and

> test LiveSupport on it. could you post exact details, version, download

> site, etc. of the reference setup?

>

the latest knoppix version is:

KNOPPIX_V3.7-2004-12-08 (-EN)

I normally get them from vienna:

http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/opsys/linux/knoppix/

but any other mirror should be fine too.

(http://www.knoppix.net/get.php)

the knoppix-installer ("sudo knoppix-installer") install type "debian"

should be want we want.

most probably some (developer) packages have to be added or updated

afterwards to build livesupport. it would be good to keep track of

those.

> Also, the issue of OSS vs. ALSA came up earlier: does this Knoppix

> support ALSA? or only OSS?

well. it "supports" alsa in this version, but:

it seems to me that the auto-detection for alsa is broken and the

alsa-modules were not updated for the new (2.4) kernel in this version.

this may be a reason to use the older version (which I know is working

with alsa) instead, if a working alsa should be available:

KNOPPIX_V3.6-2004-08-16-EN

(theoretical it should then be possbible to update the packages on the

cd release to current debian sarge. but this needs to be done carefully

not to break any knoppix-specifics..)

m,-

--=_alternative 00542F06C1256FAF_=--

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail

import

> Hi Michael,
>
> Please forgive what may be a stupid question, but isn't hardware
> support better with a newer kernel version? One of the key criteria
> for the Installer CD in the first place was that it provide the widest
> possible support for hardware. Or does Knoppix handle hardware
> differently? I'm the first to admit a profound lack of knowledge of
> its workings.
>

well the key to use knoppix in this case as I see (or better interpret)
it, is that it does a pretty good job in autodetecting your hardware and
setup the system for you. In terms of widest possible hardware support
it is not really different to any other distributions and their kernels.
(except for some added modules - mostly wireless - you normally have to
get and compile yourself)

the kernel is a question I already wanted to pop up. default knoppix
comes with 2.4.27 (or 2.6.9) in version 3.7 and 2.4.26 (or 2.6.7) in 3.6
(all of them, apart from knoppix boot command line extensions and xfs
support vanilla/unpatched from kernel.org)
of course it leaves the possibility to compile your own ..
but It's honestly out of my experience to generalize how much hardware
support a .01 or .02 more version adds.

> I also recognize that time is tight, and that we will settle for
> whatever we can finish fastest, but I wanted to raise this question
> with you.

> p.s. I don't want to derail any plans, but I've had pretty good
> results with the Beatrix 2005.1 Live CD (based on Ubuntu, which is
> itself Debian-based).

this is a good point. I don't want to derail plan neither, but I am also
thinking about the question if knoppix is really the right tool to
provide a complete system install cd ( although in can of course).

I also made some good results with ubuntu or gnoppix as live cds, but I
either did not find or was not able do a successful harddisc install
with them. another one, which should be more quickly to customize,
knoppix-based as well and also used by ubuntu, is morphix.
but changing form knoppix to something else - in my point of view -
would require the additional stage of testing them in regards to
hard-disc-installation.

And what all these live cd's have in common is that they are focused on
what also their name already tells: live cd mode. as for the task to
provide a complete system I would even think in other directions
[[ brainstorm ]]: a possibility that came to my mind is sticking to
"real" debian sarge and customize their debian-installer (which does a
quite good job in automatic hardware detection in the meantime too, and
customizing is in principle possible) to include livesupport, which
therefor should be debian-packaged of course ...

to be honest, probably unsure about your plans and maybe in danger of
derailing my task - I am not so sure if I wouldn't consider appropriate
packaging more important than providing a complete system
(installer-cd).
of course I it is a nice product, and for sure it is possible to take a
knoppix or similar, add livesupport, costumize and tweak some wordings,
appearance, installer scripts, etc...
but of course we are also talking about providing a complete system /
distribution, which is mainly about taking what is already there and
working. and it's also likely in danger to generate pretty serious
overhead if starting to add, change and fix things that are not _really_
_really_ important.

just to raise some questions and thoughts again, as it seems important
at the moment. the priorities are up to you.
if it is to quickly produce a very easy-to-use nice-looking installer cd
knoppix may still be the best (if not only) option for me at the moment.
if you want to focus on a solid and supported base system, I would also
consider the debian packaging and custom debian-installer-cd track to be
a quite interesting option...

m.

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail

import

This is a multipart message in MIME format.
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi,

The version we decide on should have the best sound support and the widest
hardware support. It's my understanding that the 2.6.x kernel supports
things like ALSA, which will be, in the long run, better for our purposes.
But I'll defer to the developers on this matter.

As for the function of the CD, we discussed the differences between a
LiveCD, which would essentially be a demo of a crippled LS install, as
opposed to a CD that provided for the easiest possible HD install
experience.

We chose an installer CD instead, one that, if booted, would guide a user
through the installation not only of the LS files, but of all its
dependencies (Postgres, Helix, Apache, PHP, etc.). Ideally this would even
handle partitioning, but I don't know if that's supported in a straight
Knoppix install-to-HD function.

doug

=============================================
Media Development Loan Fund
=============================================
Douglas Arellanes
Head of Research and Development
Center for Advanced Media--Prague (CAMP)
Na vinicnich horach 24a/1834, 160 00 Prague 6
Czech Republic
Tel: + 420 2 3333 5356, Fax: +420 2 2431 5419
Mobile: +420 724 073 364
http://www.mdlf-camp.net
http://www.campware.org
=============================================
http://www.mdlf.org
=============================================

michael aschauer
02/21/2005 07:38 PM
Please respond to livesupport-dev

To: livesupport-dev@campware.org
cc:
Subject: Re: [livesupport-dev] exact details of reference platform (Knoppix)

> Hi Michael,
>
> Please forgive what may be a stupid question, but isn't hardware
> support better with a newer kernel version? One of the key criteria
> for the Installer CD in the first place was that it provide the widest
> possible support for hardware. Or does Knoppix handle hardware
> differently? I'm the first to admit a profound lack of knowledge of
> its workings.
>

well the key to use knoppix in this case as I see (or better interpret)
it, is that it does a pretty good job in autodetecting your hardware and
setup the system for you. In terms of widest possible hardware support
it is not really different to any other distributions and their kernels.
(except for some added modules - mostly wireless - you normally have to
get and compile yourself)

the kernel is a question I already wanted to pop up. default knoppix
comes with 2.4.27 (or 2.6.9) in version 3.7 and 2.4.26 (or 2.6.7) in 3.6
(all of them, apart from knoppix boot command line extensions and xfs
support vanilla/unpatched from kernel.org)
of course it leaves the possibility to compile your own ..
but It's honestly out of my experience to generalize how much hardware
support a .01 or .02 more version adds.

> I also recognize that time is tight, and that we will settle for
> whatever we can finish fastest, but I wanted to raise this question
> with you.

> p.s. I don't want to derail any plans, but I've had pretty good
> results with the Beatrix 2005.1 Live CD (based on Ubuntu, which is
> itself Debian-based).

this is a good point. I don't want to derail plan neither, but I am also
thinking about the question if knoppix is really the right tool to
provide a complete system install cd ( although in can of course).

I also made some good results with ubuntu or gnoppix as live cds, but I
either did not find or was not able do a successful harddisc install
with them. another one, which should be more quickly to customize,
knoppix-based as well and also used by ubuntu, is morphix.
but changing form knoppix to something else - in my point of view -
would require the additional stage of testing them in regards to
hard-disc-installation.

And what all these live cd's have in common is that they are focused on
what also their name already tells: live cd mode. as for the task to
provide a complete system I would even think in other directions
[[ brainstorm ]]: a possibility that came to my mind is sticking to
"real" debian sarge and customize their debian-installer (which does a
quite good job in automatic hardware detection in the meantime too, and
customizing is in principle possible) to include livesupport, which
therefor should be debian-packaged of course ...

to be honest, probably unsure about your plans and maybe in danger of
derailing my task - I am not so sure if I wouldn't consider appropriate
packaging more important than providing a complete system
(installer-cd).
of course I it is a nice product, and for sure it is possible to take a
knoppix or similar, add livesupport, costumize and tweak some wordings,
appearance, installer scripts, etc...
but of course we are also talking about providing a complete system /
distribution, which is mainly about taking what is already there and
working. and it's also likely in danger to generate pretty serious
overhead if starting to add, change and fix things that are not _really_
_really_ important.

just to raise some questions and thoughts again, as it seems important
at the moment. the priorities are up to you.
if it is to quickly produce a very easy-to-use nice-looking installer cd
knoppix may still be the best (if not only) option for me at the moment.
if you want to focus on a solid and supported base system, I would also
consider the debian packaging and custom debian-installer-cd track to be
a quite interesting option...

m.

--=_alternative 003986B0C1256FB1_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Hi,

The version we decide on should have the best sound support and the widest hardware support. It's my understanding that the 2.6.x kernel supports things like ALSA, which will be, in the long run, better for our purposes. But I'll defer to the developers on this matter.

As for the function of the CD, we discussed the differences between a LiveCD, which would essentially be a demo of a crippled LS install, as opposed to a CD that provided for the easiest possible HD install experience.

We chose an installer CD instead, one that, if booted, would guide a user through the installation not only of the LS files, but of all its dependencies (Postgres, Helix, Apache, PHP, etc.). Ideally this would even handle partitioning, but I don't know if that's supported in a straight Knoppix install-to-HD function.

doug

=============================================

Media Development Loan Fund

=============================================

Douglas Arellanes

Head of Research and Development

Center for Advanced Media--Prague (CAMP)

Na vinicnich horach 24a/1834, 160 00 Prague 6

Czech Republic

Tel: + 420 2 3333 5356, Fax: +420 2 2431 5419

Mobile: +420 724 073 364

http://www.mdlf-camp.net

http://www.campware.org

=============================================

http://www.mdlf.org

=============================================

michael aschauer <mash@re-p.org>

02/21/2005 07:38 PM

Please respond to livesupport-dev

To: livesupport-dev@campware.org

cc:

Subject: Re: [livesupport-dev] exact details of reference platform (Knoppix)

> Hi Michael,

>

> Please forgive what may be a stupid question, but isn't hardware

> support better with a newer kernel version? One of the key criteria

> for the Installer CD in the first place was that it provide the widest

> possible support for hardware. Or does Knoppix handle hardware

> differently? I'm the first to admit a profound lack of knowledge of

> its workings.

>

well the key to use knoppix in this case as I see (or better interpret)

it, is that it does a pretty good job in autodetecting your hardware and

setup the system for you. In terms of widest possible hardware support

it is not really different to any other distributions and their kernels.

(except for some added modules - mostly wireless - you normally have to

get and compile yourself)

the kernel is a question I already wanted to pop up. default knoppix

comes with 2.4.27 (or 2.6.9) in version 3.7 and 2.4.26 (or 2.6.7) in 3.6

(all of them, apart from knoppix boot command line extensions and xfs

support vanilla/unpatched from kernel.org)

of course it leaves the possibility to compile your own ..

but It's honestly out of my experience to generalize how much hardware

support a .01 or .02 more version adds.

> I also recognize that time is tight, and that we will settle for

> whatever we can finish fastest, but I wanted to raise this question

> with you.

> p.s. I don't want to derail any plans, but I've had pretty good

> results with the Beatrix 2005.1 Live CD (based on Ubuntu, which is

> itself Debian-based).

this is a good point. I don't want to derail plan neither, but I am also

thinking about the question if knoppix is really the right tool to

provide a complete system install cd ( although in can of course).

I also made some good results with ubuntu or gnoppix as live cds, but I

either did not find or was not able do a successful harddisc install

with them. another one, which should be more quickly to customize,

knoppix-based as well and also used by ubuntu, is morphix.

but changing form knoppix to something else - in my point of view -

would require the additional stage of testing them in regards to

hard-disc-installation.

And what all these live cd's have in common is that they are focused on

what also their name already tells: live cd mode. as for the task to

provide a complete system I would even think in other directions

[[ brainstorm ]]: a possibility that came to my mind is sticking to

"real" debian sarge and customize their debian-installer (which does a

quite good job in automatic hardware detection in the meantime too, and

customizing is in principle possible) to include livesupport, which

therefor should be debian-packaged of course ...

to be honest, probably unsure about your plans and maybe in danger of

derailing my task - I am not so sure if I wouldn't consider appropriate

packaging more important than providing a complete system

(installer-cd).

of course I it is a nice product, and for sure it is possible to take a

knoppix or similar, add livesupport, costumize and tweak some wordings,

appearance, installer scripts, etc...

but of course we are also talking about providing a complete system /

distribution, which is mainly about taking what is already there and

working. and it's also likely in danger to generate pretty serious

overhead if starting to add, change and fix things that are not _really_

_really_ important.

just to raise some questions and thoughts again, as it seems important

at the moment. the priorities are up to you.

if it is to quickly produce a very easy-to-use nice-looking installer cd

knoppix may still be the best (if not only) option for me at the moment.

if you want to focus on a solid and supported base system, I would also

consider the debian packaging and custom debian-installer-cd track to be

a quite interesting option...

m.

--=_alternative 003986B0C1256FB1_=--

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail

import

Douglas.Arellanes@mdlf.org wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The version we decide on should have the best sound support and the widest
> hardware support. It's my understanding that the 2.6.x kernel supports
> things like ALSA, which will be, in the long run, better for our purposes.
> But I'll defer to the developers on this matter.

I'd vote for 2.6, for sure. has a lot better sound support (ALSA
included in the kernel tree) than 2.4.

Akos

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail

import

> As for the function of the CD, we discussed the differences between a
> LiveCD, which would essentially be a demo of a crippled LS install, as
> opposed to a CD that provided for the easiest possible HD install
> experience.
>
> We chose an installer CD instead, one that, if booted, would guide a
> user through the installation not only of the LS files, but of all its
> dependencies (Postgres, Helix, Apache, PHP, etc.). Ideally this would
> even handle partitioning, but I don't know if that's supported in a
> straight Knoppix install-to-HD function.
>

partitioning, is included but just as a call to a standard partitioning
program (I don't wich a the moment, but I doubt it's a graphical one..)

basically - if not known - the difference of a knoppix-HD-install as in
opposite to a normal system installer CD (wich guides you through an
installation process choosing and configuring your software/packages -
to what ever kind of extend automatically or manually ), Knoppix and
other live-CD installer just copy the whole system running of the
live-CD to the hard-disc, and - of course - adding some additional
modifications and configurations (strip the autoconfiguring part, but
leave the config files, setup normal user accounts, system startup
services, boot manager,etc..) to turn it into a normal system.

this means that live system and installed system are mostly "the same"
and easy to install because you just need to answer a very minimum set
of question..

m.-

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail

import

btw. I still don't not know when what should be ready or ges started.
but I just read that there is a new knoppix release scheduled for CeBIT
in march. As for the installer knoppix CD I would suggest to wait for
this uptodate knoppix version
(and as for development purpose needs like building, this should match
fine with any debian testing too ...)

m.

Am Montag, den 21.02.2005, 14:25 +0100 schrieb Akos Maroy:
> a question mainly to Michael:
>
> what would be the exact reference setup for the CD based install? we'd
> need this information to create a reference system, so as to compile and
> test LiveSupport on it. could you post exact details, version, download
> site, etc. of the reference setup?
>
> Also, the issue of OSS vs. ALSA came up earlier: does this Knoppix
> support ALSA? or only OSS?
>

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail

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