[livesupport-dev] helix, gstreamer and v1.0 release - Airtime Development Discussions on Sourcefabric Forum

import

Hi,

I've been keeping close eye on LiveSupport development lately and
waiting for 1.0 prerelease to put it on test run.
I'm managing technical stuff for a low budget regional FM station and
I've been looking around for Open Source radio automation package for a
long time as commercial packages costing around 1000-2000USD are no
satisfactory - they all have some pretty annoying software bugs or are
simply badly designed - and I would prefer to run radio on linux or
macosx not on windoze.

As you developers are discussing helix or gstreamer player inclusion
into v1.0 I would like to give my opinion on it.

I understand that the release date is quite a bit overdue and therefor
there is pressure to get the thing out - but I still think making quick
release with helixplayer would be bit pointless also for the following
reasons:

1) As gstreamer matures it will replace helix anyway in next release -
right? I would consider player in Studio playout module as one of the
Core components and I don't see point to start testing helixrealease
when I would have start test run again when gstreamer release comes out.

2) If with helix there is no cue support (aka multiple sound outputs)
then it's no good for real life FM radio anyway. At least I don't see a
workaround for this...

3) Helix will support only mp3, no ogg - we are small FM station but we
never saw mp3 as a true option for our music database because of bad mp3
compression quality on desirable bitrates. MP3 especially distorts high
frequencies - while that may not matter directly for FM broadcasting
(limited frequncy bandwith anyway) I still would like to have music
database which sounds as original material and is not crippled anyhow
for other purposes in future. Ogg compression sounds much better. And
storage space is cheap nowdays - so even uncompressed wav would be ok.
Changing music database format is not an easy job if you have around
5000 titles - so converting to mp3 and then later to something else is
pointless.

The biggest showstopper for us would be missing cue support. We could do
test run with mp3 but in long term it's not an good choice to have music
database as mp3-s.

So we better wait another 1-2 weeks for gstreamer getting more mature in
livesupport than starting livesupport discovery with helix now.

Best Regards,
--

----------------------------------------------
Andres Toomsalu, andres@active.ee
juhataja - general manager, O

import

hi andres,

thanks for your input. first of all: good to know someone will test the
beast. now we know where you live (!) and will ping you to see what you
make of it Wink

. seriously, we will need feedback on the release from people
in the field.

therefore especially your take on the cue function is valid. what use is
the 1.0 if it contains a showstopper for professional use?

>I understand that the release date is quite a bit overdue and therefor
>there is pressure to get the thing out

yes. fortunately and unfortunately there is a time pressure on the 1.0
release. in the best scenario such pressure leads to boiling down what is
working and packaging this. in the worst scenario, as we are seeing right
here, the pressure urges fundamental decisions to be made for the better or
the worse, i nour case gstreamer vs. helix.

> So we better wait another 1-2 weeks for gstreamer getting more mature in
livesupport than starting livesupport discovery with helix now.

or, if things work out, have the 1.0 rc with gstreamer waiting for you by
the end of the week. it's down to akos and ferenc now to make the decision.
we all would be happier with gstreamer, as this is the future for livesupport.

let's see what the c++ wizzards boil for us...

Micz Flor - micz@mi.cz

content and media development http://mi.cz
------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.campware.org -- http://www.redall.de -- http://suemi.de
------------------------------------------------------------------

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import

Micz Flor wrote:
> thanks for your input. first of all: good to know someone will test the
> beast. now we know where you live (!) and will ping you to see what you
> make of it Wink

. seriously, we will need feedback on the release from
> people in the field.

yes indeed Smile

> let's see what the c++ wizzards boil for us...

I made it compile on Mandrake as well. (BTW, ls-dev is sooooo sloooow,
I'm so happy we're migrating to one big dev server soon...)

So I'll work on making the scheduler use gstreamer, while Ferenc can
work on the GUI issues.

Akos

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import

At 14:59 30.06.2005, you wrote:
>So I'll work on making the scheduler use gstreamer, while Ferenc can
>work on the GUI issues.

have you spoken to him?

Micz Flor - micz@mi.cz

content and media development http://mi.cz
------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.campware.org -- http://www.redall.de -- http://suemi.de
------------------------------------------------------------------

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import

Micz Flor wrote:
> have you spoken to him?

yes. the problem is, that he's upgraded his machine, which in return now
doesn't want to boot Sad

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import

We have around 3-4 weeks for figuring out which automation system we
need to adopt - LiveSupport, Rivendell or lastly BSIUSA Simian (the only
commercial one that sort of works but with MS access DB and is build on
other MS technologys which is horror in administrative viewpoint). So
once something enough complete for testing comes out from LiveSupport
we'll spend some 1-2 weeks on testing that througly and try to help with
squashing bugs. If LiveSupport figures out for our needs then we might
get some contract resources from our clients and throw some working
hours behind LiveSupport for bug squashing and further development of
new features.

Rivendell system and its AirPLay module is getting pretty close to
being stable enough but the overall system lacks some functionality -
most importantly the open source music selector/scheduler/playlist
creator is not part of the system. While it is possible to use
commercial selector we would prefer open-source one on long term. Well,
it's always possible to code our own...

So we thought we will wait for LS 1.0 preview and then see which
platform makes more sense to stick with. I'm not very familiar with LS
yet (wanted to wait 1.0 preview before getting to know it better) but
features like additional web frontend, music database/archive handling,
nice GUI design and playlist mix editing support seemed appealing. Is LS
going to have an music selector functionality (aka playlist composer
based on clocks) or that needs to be developed additionally - that I
didn't get clearly from initial docs.

Our test and main production platform is Gentoo, so we could start
testing LS with gstreamer even if you still have Debian compile problems
with it.

Cheers,

--
----------------------------------------------
Andres Toomsalu, andres@active.ee
juhataja - general manager, O

import

Hi Andreas,

Thank you for your
constructive live input, ecpecially because FM radio station
professional area is far smaller under linux enviroment,

and every
experience with these radio software solution enviroment, as long with
players and used codecs, is welcome here. Smile

)

I myself as a
user , am confronted with different hearing results under linux
enviroment. And I am talking here about "the first look" impression,
and not some hi-fi esoteric.

....we are small FM station but we never saw mp3 as a true option
for our music database because of bad mp3 compression quality on
desirable bitrates.

MP3 especially distorts high frequencies

Can you
tell me which programs and encoders you use to get mp3 compression for
the test - and also what compression rate did you tested?

Best regards

Robert Klajn

style="color: rgb(255, 128, 0);" lang="SR">

style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(255, 128, 0); font-weight: normal;"
lang="SR">Robert Klajn style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(255, 128, 0);" lang="SR">

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import

Hi Robert,

I haven't used mp3 compression lately anymore but 2-3 years ago I recall
having not so great sound quality when doing 128 or 192 kbps mp3
encoding with Xing or Fraunhofer codec. There was always a chance that
some songs high frequencies were getting distorted, so we chose MS ADPCM
instead as we were using BSIUSA Wavestation automation system at that
time. These days ogg wasn't mainstream yet...and still there is no ogg
support in radio automation - not taking account LiveSupport ofcourse.

Secondly I think it would be wise to have audio database as lossless as
it can be or as original sounding as it can be (in compression wise).
For FM broadcasting this is not needed but there is a lot of work going
into good audio database (setting cues, mixes, other info) and maybe one
day you want to use it for something else too where maybe more quality
is needed (or maybe less quality output - but for conversion source you
maybe need good quality to make conversion to succeed fully). So if your
audio database is low rate mp3 and some songs are distorted - all the
great work might be more or less wasted future wise.

Nowdays if I have to choose mp3 or ogg - well that is no brainer:
1) no royalties on ogg codec
2) ogg is well supported in OSS software while mp3 support is not so
great... ok there is LAME still, but I don't know is it legal overall
3) I think ogg sounds better on lower bitrates

Only thing that mp3 is more widely known still in commercial
applications - but WMA and other proprietary formats will override that
soon anyway.
So if I have to compress I would choose ogg but I even would prefer to
have audio database in some lossless or near lossless format.

Cheers,

Robert Klajn wrote:

> Hi Andreas,
> Thank you for your constructive live input, ecpecially because FM
> radio station professional area is far smaller under linux enviroment,
> and every experience with these radio software solution enviroment, as
> long with players and used codecs, is welcome here. Smile

)
>
> I myself as a user , am confronted with different hearing results
> under linux enviroment. And I am talking here about "the first look"
> impression, and not some hi-fi esoteric.
>
> /....we are small FM station but we never saw mp3 as a true option for
> our music database because of bad mp3 compression quality on desirable
> bitrates.
> MP3 especially distorts high frequencies/
>
> Can you tell me which programs and encoders you use to get mp3
> compression for the test - and also what compression rate did you tested?
>
>
>
> Best regards
> Robert Klajn
> ///////////// /////////////
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Robert Klajn *
>
> * klajn@b92.net
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

--

Andres Toomsalu, andres@active.ee
juhataja - general manager, OÜ Active Systems
Lille 4-205, Pärnu 80041, phone +372 44 70 595
GSM +372 56 496 124, IM: frame@jabber.org
http://www.active.ee

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------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail

import

jxn sly wrote:
> don't forget about ogg's flexibility features -- the ability to easily
> split the track (with ogg metadata maintained), a broad container format
> similar accross flac/speex/theora, and (my personal favorite) the
> ability to downcode (is that the word? move to a lower bitrate without

bitrate peeling

> completely reencoding from scratch, to preserve audio quality) tracks
> recorded at higher bitrates when you decide your priority is diskspace

while this feature of ogg vorbis has been hyped for several years now,
I've never seen _any_ implementation that actually makes it possible...
it would be nice though, especially for streaming...

Akos

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail

import

------=_Part_2833_3231969.1120513958399
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

On 7/2/05, =C1kos Mar=F3y wrote:
>=20
> jxn sly wrote:
> > don't forget about ogg's flexibility features -- the ability to easily
> > split the track (with ogg metadata maintained), a broad container forma=
t
> > similar accross flac/speex/theora, and (my personal favorite) the
> > ability to downcode (is that the word? move to a lower bitrate without
>=20
> bitrate peeling
>=20
> > completely reencoding from scratch, to preserve audio quality) tracks
> > recorded at higher bitrates when you decide your priority is diskspace
>=20
> while this feature of ogg vorbis has been hyped for several years now,
> I've never seen _any_ implementation that actually makes it possible...
> it would be nice though, especially for streaming...
>=20
>=20
> Akos
>=20
Interesting...I had used a script on my old machine that implimented bitrat=
e=20
peeling and seemed to work quite well, but I cannot seem to find it anymore=
.=20
I found quite a few bitrate-peeling mini-scripts out there, looking for the=
=20
old one I had used, but the audio quality is horrible (i.e., something's no=
t=20
working right).

------=_Part_2833_3231969.1120513958399
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

On 7/2/05, rname">=C1kos Mar=F3y <darkeye@=
tyrell.hu> wrote:

order-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; paddin=
g-left: 1ex;">
jxn sly wrote:
> don't forget about ogg's flexibility features -- the=
ability to easily
> split the track (with ogg metadata maintained), =
a broad container format
> similar accross flac/speex/theora, and (my=
personal favorite) the

> ability to downcode (is that the word? move to a lower bitrate wit=
hout

bitrate peeling

> completely reencoding from scratch,=
to preserve audio quality) tracks
> recorded at higher bitrates when=
you decide your priority is diskspace

while this feature of ogg vorbis has been hyped for several years n=
ow,
I've never seen _any_ implementation that actually makes it possible=
...
it would be nice though, especially for streaming...

Akos

Interesting...I
had used a script on my old machine that implimented bitrate peeling
and seemed to work quite well, but I cannot seem to find it
anymore. I found quite a few bitrate-peeling mini-scripts out
there, looking for the old one I had used, but the audio quality is
horrible (i.e., something's not working right).

------=_Part_2833_3231969.1120513958399--

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail

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