I agree on that, people are used to have an "OK" and "CANCEL" buttons in
most of the interfaces. If we want a user-friendly interface, then just
leave them there.

raed

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ondra Koutek"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 9:01 AM
Subject: RE: [campsite-dev] Get rid of Cancel buttons?


> In my opinion removing them would confuse people.
> Ondra
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Baranowski [mailto:paul@paulbaranowski.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:34 AM
> To: campsite-dev@campware.org; Charles
> Subject: [campsite-dev] Get rid of Cancel buttons?
>
> Should we have cancel buttons in the interface? When you click cancel,
> it is supposed to take you back to where you were before. However, we
> now have "Back" links at the top of the screen, which eliminate the need
> for a Cancel button and are much more explicit in terms of their
> functionality. In some cases, there are different things you can go
> back to, so a single Cancel button will have to choose one of them.
>
> I think they used to be useful, but since the interface changed they
> arent relevant anymore.
>
> There may be some cases where it is still necessary to have one, but I
> think most of the time it is not needed.
>
> - Paul
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail

From my point of view, Campsite user interface is in a process of
transition and for sure needs to be more polished. I would remove both
buttons (save and cancel) or none. Of course, in case you would remove
both buttons, you should put 'Save' into menu with other functions and
probably repeat the menu at the bottom of the page.

Best,

Nenad


On Wednesday 08 of June 2005 10:02, Paul Baranowski wrote:
> I am surprised by these answers, so I will explain my argument a bit
> more. First let me explicitly state that I am arguing FOR a
> user-friendly interface, which is why I proposed the change. The
> previous application I worked on had no cancel buttons - because they
> arent needed; what you want is a way to navigate through your
> application. We are using the cancel button for navigation, but the
> navigation should always be in the same place so the user always
> knows where to go to move around. Now that the navigation is at the
> top of the screen, thats where the user should go to navigate, using
> links, and not to the bottom using a button. Consistency throughout
> the interface is very important for usability. You are arguing for
> consistency with previous versions of the campsite: "our users are
> used to doing it one way". As we have shown with the last release,
> changing the interface made it more easier to use, not less...even
> though people were used to the old interface.
>
> The cancel button is ambiguous because where is it that you want to
> go back to? The previous page? The next "higher up" section? A
> couple pages back? Because of this confusion, there is a massive
> amount of programming time expended on trying to program the best
> "guess" where the user should go when the user clicks this. And in
> many cases, these end up being bugs. So at a practical level, these
> cancel buttons do have an impact on our schedule because we have to
> test them all and under different circumstances. If we use "Back"
> links, no programming is needed and you only need to test once.
>
> Here's an example of how using "Back" links helps the user. There
> are multiple entry points to a few screens...for example, I can go
> from the article list page to automatic publishing, or from the
> article edit page to automatic publishing. Now from here, I should
> be able to go to the article list screen or the article edit screen,
> but I only have an ambiguous "cancel" button. If I have "Back to
> Article Edit" and "Back to Article List" at the top, it is more
> explicit, and it is side-by-side with all the rest of the navigation.
> I know I can always get somewhere by looking at the top of the
> screen.
>
> Another rule I try to go by with interfaces is to only have one way
> to do something. If you have two ways of doing something, then half
> of your users will do it one way and the other half will do it the
> other way, and you will have to support both sets of users (as well
> as explain both ways to do it in the manual).
>
> To get a feeling for the loss in functionality without "back" links,
> go to Article Edit -> Images -> Add Existing Images. Notice the
> "Back" links at the top, and notice there is no "Cancel" button on
> this screen. Now click "Back to Article Image List" -> "Add New
> Image". Now you only have a cancel button. I can only go back to
> one place. I feel lost and confused. I want to go back to the
> article I was editing, but I cant.
>
> - Paul
>
> raed@tamamtech.com wrote:
> > I agree on that, people are used to have an "OK" and "CANCEL"
> > buttons in most of the interfaces. If we want a user-friendly
> > interface, then just leave them there.
> >
> > raed
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ondra Koutek"
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 9:01 AM
> > Subject: RE: [campsite-dev] Get rid of Cancel buttons?
> >
> >> In my opinion removing them would confuse people.
> >> Ondra
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Paul Baranowski [mailto:paul@paulbaranowski.org]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:34 AM
> >> To: campsite-dev@campware.org; Charles
> >> Subject: [campsite-dev] Get rid of Cancel buttons?
> >>
> >> Should we have cancel buttons in the interface? When you click
> >> cancel, it is supposed to take you back to where you were before.
> >> However, we now have "Back" links at the top of the screen, which
> >> eliminate the need for a Cancel button and are much more explicit
> >> in terms of their functionality. In some cases, there are
> >> different things you can go back to, so a single Cancel button
> >> will have to choose one of them.
> >>
> >> I think they used to be useful, but since the interface changed
> >> they arent relevant anymore.
> >>
> >> There may be some cases where it is still necessary to have one,
> >> but I think most of the time it is not needed.
> >>
> >> - Paul

------------------------------------------
Posted to Phorum via PhorumMail

In this case I agree with Paul but, this is not something we can implement
gradualy because we generate inconsystencies in the UI. This is more like 3.1
or 3.2.

Mugur

--- Paul Baranowski wrote:
> I am surprised by these answers, so I will explain my argument a bit
> more. First let me explicitly state that I am arguing FOR a
> user-friendly interface, which is why I proposed the change. The
> previous application I worked on had no cancel buttons - because they
> arent needed; what you want is a way to navigate through your
> application. We are using the cancel button for navigation, but the
> navigation should always be in the same place so the user always knows
> where to go to move around. Now that the navigation is at the top of
> the screen, thats where the user should go to navigate, using links, and
> not to the bottom using a button. Consistency throughout the interface
> is very important for usability. You are arguing for consistency with
> previous versions of the campsite: "our users are used to doing it one
> way". As we have shown with the last release, changing the interface
> made it more easier to use, not less...even though people were used to
> the old interface.
>
> The cancel button is ambiguous because where is it that you want to go
> back to? The previous page? The next "higher up" section? A couple
> pages back? Because of this confusion, there is a massive amount of
> programming time expended on trying to program the best "guess" where
> the user should go when the user clicks this. And in many cases, these
> end up being bugs. So at a practical level, these cancel buttons do
> have an impact on our schedule because we have to test them all and
> under different circumstances. If we use "Back" links, no programming
> is needed and you only need to test once.
>
> Here's an example of how using "Back" links helps the user. There are
> multiple entry points to a few screens...for example, I can go from the
> article list page to automatic publishing, or from the article edit page
> to automatic publishing. Now from here, I should be able to go to the
> article list screen or the article edit screen, but I only have an
> ambiguous "cancel" button. If I have "Back to Article Edit" and "Back
> to Article List" at the top, it is more explicit, and it is side-by-side
> with all the rest of the navigation. I know I can always get somewhere
> by looking at the top of the screen.
>
> Another rule I try to go by with interfaces is to only have one way to
> do something. If you have two ways of doing something, then half of
> your users will do it one way and the other half will do it the other
> way, and you will have to support both sets of users (as well as explain
> both ways to do it in the manual).
>
> To get a feeling for the loss in functionality without "back" links, go
> to Article Edit -> Images -> Add Existing Images. Notice the "Back"
> links at the top, and notice there is no "Cancel" button on this screen.
> Now click "Back to Article Image List" -> "Add New Image". Now you only
> have a cancel button. I can only go back to one place. I feel lost and
> confused. I want to go back to the article I was editing, but I cant.
>
> - Paul
>
>
>
> raed@tamamtech.com wrote:
> > I agree on that, people are used to have an "OK" and "CANCEL" buttons in
> > most of the interfaces. If we want a user-friendly interface, then just
> > leave them there.
> >
> > raed
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ondra Koutek"
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 9:01 AM
> > Subject: RE: [campsite-dev] Get rid of Cancel buttons?
> >
> >
> >> In my opinion removing them would confuse people.
> >> Ondra
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Paul Baranowski [mailto:paul@paulbaranowski.org]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:34 AM
> >> To: campsite-dev@campware.org; Charles
> >> Subject: [campsite-dev] Get rid of Cancel buttons?
> >>
> >> Should we have cancel buttons in the interface? When you click cancel,
> >> it is supposed to take you back to where you were before. However, we
> >> now have "Back" links at the top of the screen, which eliminate the need
> >> for a Cancel button and are much more explicit in terms of their
> >> functionality. In some cases, there are different things you can go
> >> back to, so a single Cancel button will have to choose one of them.
> >>
> >> I think they used to be useful, but since the interface changed they
> >> arent relevant anymore.
> >>
> >> There may be some cases where it is still necessary to have one, but I
> >> think most of the time it is not needed.
> >>
> >> - Paul
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>


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